Tuesday, August 05, 2008

The Mind Boggles

Simply BOGGLES!!!!!!!!!

In the 2 years I have lived in Rogers Park I have realized that Joe Moore is a lightning rod for many people. I have tried to take a careful approach to assessing his qualities, and have not been convinced that he is a top-drawer Alderman. That said, I wasn't ready to throw the baby out with the bath water, until today.

I got that email blast from our Alderman. I read about it at Craig's and checked out Tom's dissection of the letter. Tom did what I would have done, and in my opinion did a good job cross-referencing to Ben Joravsky's article, although I would have been inclined to go further in the comparison.

The bottom line is that the letter's account of the timeline and what instigated the effort to bring BGC into the community is at odds with the article, which includes direct quotes from Joe, which Tom notes. Why our Alderman feels compelled to change the story, create contradictions, and further damage his credibility, is beyond me. I know what many of my RP friends would say. I can think of many things I'd like to say, and right now I am biting my tongue and exercising extreme self control to not put them in cyber-print. I am well beyond disappointed, that is for certain.

Back at the end of the run-off I acknowledged that Joe won, and he is the Alderman, however I didn't trust him. I have no more reason to trust him now than I did then, and frankly I have even less reason to even consider trusting him.

I can't say anymore........I am just ready to explode!


Bill Morton said...

Well there is one thing that we can do about this...

Make sure he does not get re-elected again.

been there said...

i can't believe that you would take tom mannis' diatribe as some sort of cogent analysis. it is the ravings of someone a couple brick shy of a load.

once again the bloggers foul up something good, something that rogers park needed.

shouldn't you all be patting yourselves on the back for chasing the evil bgc out? funny no one seems to want to do that.

maybe some in the howling mob thought the end result would be some sort of compromise. maybe they will learn from this that compromise becomes impossible when people so dehumanize each other. and we see who pays the price.

really, really sad.

Fargo said...

Joe remains consistent in his tendency to be inconsistent. The story always changes...

RogersParking said...

Been there, you give a great deal of credit to the bloggers.

You clearly believe they hold tremendous power!

Really. Take a vacation or something.

been there said...

so, all you bitter enders won. you should be patting yourself on the back for your great show of force, causing the cpd to back down. but you all know that you have torn something down. and left a void.

you know, no is the easiest thing to say. no is the easiest thing to accomplish. no is the most thoughtless response to a challenge. that is all i have heard so far. no to joe. no to bgc. no to marinas. no to roads, and cars. no to condos. no to murals.
no to change.
that is not leadership. leadership does not accept no. leadership begins where no ends.

now be grown ups, and fill the hole that you created. you wanted control, now step up to the plate, and build something good. make the kids in rogers park feel like they belong. give them constructive things to do. get afterschool programs up and running. find the money to keep the annex open all summer, so that kids have somewhere to go.
find the experience, the committment, and the institutional support that you have turned down.

prove that you are more than just naysayers.
prove that you are adults.
prove that you are leaders.

my checkbook and i will be waiting at the finish line.

Toni said...

Mo Cahill - Please start your "be grownups and fill the hole" song on Joe et al. That building was never created to be a BGC until someone thought it would be one of those feathers in a hat.

Perhaps you and westie could spend your spin and attack time researching grants and fundraising. Once again, someone else made a mess and expects the people to clean it up. It's not our turn to prove anything to anyone. Get on the phone and start calling all the corporate BGC supporters yourself and let us know what you find out. Do something real for a change.

And, real leadership in the political arena doesn't take tax dollars to feather his and his friends caps with secret deals. Real leadership isn't exclusive.

been there said...

i don't intend to lift a finger. "my side" had a deal with high quality programing from caring, experienced, organized, and self funding for the price of the staff that has to be paid for anyway. it's called leveraging out here in the real world, and it was a good plan.
you guys didn't like it, so you tore it down.
you claim the building is your baby, you are all in power, in charge. good. now go get some programming in there. figure out where you are going to get that kind of caring commitment for $100k a year.
you broke it, you bought it. it's yours. i will write a nice fat check on the first day of school if you have a GOOD, PROVEN afterschool program up and running.

RogersParking said...

been there:

So it's your way or no way, eh? Hey, as long as you're clear on the fact that you're of no value moving forward, I'm guessing everyone else will somehow try to sleep at night.

In the meantime, however, would you mind "not lifting a finger" without making so much noise?

Bye now.

been there said...

would i mind? yes i would. i intend to do to all of you what you do to joe. piss and moan, and sit on my ass while i do it.
what part of "you broke it, you bought it" don't you get? what part of the word "accountability" do you not get?
all the blow hards finally blew something down. now see if you can do anything positive.
if you do, i will reward you.
if you don't i will not pass up an opportunity to remind you that you failed.
just like all of you do, but without the reward part. because anything that joe does, someone else deserves the credit.
i will be happy to write a check. see you on the first day of school.

Rogers said...

You really need a hobby, been there. Have you considered art therapy?

RogersParking said...

Whew. Try and get a grip, been there. You're going to strain something.

That aside, you've made your point repeatedly. Things didn't go as you had hoped. The majority of the community disagreed with you. I'm sorry you're unhappy because of it.

But now you're just making noise.

been there said...

you guys are not the majority of the community in any way, shape or form. you are a handful of loudmouths. it is your insistence that you all are some sort of majority that is at the crux of why i find this whole fiasco so aggravating.

and i wish to point out that of all the posts i have made on this situation, not one reply has addressed the meat of the situation. all have been insults and "shut up". you people have no room to tell me to get a hobby. this is my hobby. get used to it.

i intend to continue to speak out, just like you all do. okay, well, not JUST like you do. i intend to address issues, consider solutions, and support any winning plans that come along. i intend to resist the temptation to insult and dehumanize people, but resisting the temptation to return the kind of insults heaped on me is sometimes overwhelming.

Rogers said...

Been there said:

"i intend to address issues, consider solutions, and support any winning plans that come along."

Now that's funny. OK, I'm done.

Kheris said...

Mo - I read the email blast and immediately realized that what I was reading was at odds with what I had learned to date. Tom beat me to the punch in doing the analysis, and it did point out the inconsistencies. I saw no reason to redo that work.

At this point, the merits of having the BGC in Rogers Park are no longer the issue. Joe's credibility, specifically his inconsistent story about the Gale center, is the issue now. There are long-time RPers who are very much interested in seeing him replaced, and they came very close in 2007. If Joe doesn't change his ways they will succeed in 2011.

been there said...

you are one of the few bloggers i respect, even though we don't agree on everything. i wish the discourse around here was as civil as your responses always are. i would not be as upset about the view from the blogosphere if the discussion had been conducted at this level.
fwiw, i see most of the things that joe is accused of as either grossly exaggerated, completely unsubstantiated, or the kind of unfortunate nontroversy that the web has nourished. he is either flogged for doing something that i consider important, like doing what little he is in a position to do about things like the war, or complete conjecture, like the assumption that all campaign contributions are bribes.
his hard work to elect barack obama is something that i really admire, yet it is something that is spoken about as though it were a crime. his work to help bring the democratic party back to it's roots is something else that was widely disparaged.
honestly, it annoys me because i just do not understand it. the kind of vitriol and ugliness that passes for discussion is just disheartening. wanting someone to be replaced in office is one thing, but completely dehumanizing him and his supporters is just something i find so tragic that i have a hard time not responding. even when i tell myself it is a waste of time.
mark twain once said "never argue with a man who buys ink by the barrel." i wonder what he would have to say about people who seem to have unlimited time to blog. i try to keep his advice in mind. but.....


Toni said...

Mo - there is programming in the facility. Have you checked out the website or the front door? Maybe you could tutor an art class? They still do those in park districts don't they? A neighbor is a dance instructor and has inquired about teaching dance. Dance is a disciplined art - much more complicated than moving around to music.

You and the Moore crew attack and slander and libel and it's OK. If anyone on the public (and legal) side of the building issue makes a remark it's uncivil discourse.

Never once did Moore refer to the building as the future home of the BGC until he thought had it all tied up. It isn't designed for a BGC and had the 'deal' gone through that exercise room would have been emptied out in a heartbeat to make more room because there just isn't enough for their needs.

So where would that leave those over 16? As it is, all ages are enjoying what there has been hastily put together due to the stall. There will be more to come but you want it yesterday. Life doesn't always happen that way.

As for that last remark about those with 'unlimited time to blog' that's too funny considering your blogger friend. Some of us actually have to go to work for a living.

been there said...

i looked at the website. there is minimal programming, that looks to me like the old- throw it against the wall and see what sticks. i predict that most of those classes will end up cancelled. if there is a comprehensive afterschool plan, i did not see it.
classes that are one hour a day, one day a week are not what is going to make a difference for these kids. and that is what most of them are- 1 hr, 1 day a week.
i don't have time to do a park district art class, thanks for the offer. one of the reasons i was in favor of bgc is because i know a lot about how cpd staffs, what they pay and who they hire. let's just say that they do not pull in the cream of the crop. at least with bgc, you would have proven people with some institutional back up that cpd just does not do. (don't get me wrong. i know some great people who work at the parks. i don't mean to say they are all bad. but it is not a job that a well trained teacher or artist really wants to take anymore.)
and really, my bottom line was/is that what the kids really need is belonging. gluing googly eyes on pospsicle sticks is not what turns a kid around. being connected to other kids, and caring adults is what they need.

one thing in your response jumps out at me- this nontroversy about "all ages". that is an absolute fabrication. complete and utter.

as far as slander, yes i have said some things about people, about them being bitter, and all that. i have gotten pissed off. but i will stand by most of those things, because they were not things just thrown out to be nasty, but things that i feel are germane to the discussion. you don't end up in a place like this with people who are sugar and light.
but if you, honestly, really honestly, put the things that people say about me, just me, next to anything that i have said, i think it just pales.

and although i am sure no one believes me, or trusts me, i am genuinely saddened by the state of affairs around here, and wish i could do something about it. i do try not to just spew at people the way so many do. this kind of discourse solves nothing, in fact, it makes everything worse. even with a different alderman, there is so much vitriol that i do not think a real majority could be forged.
it's a damned shame.

Toni said...

Mo - there's homework time 3-4pm every school night. After that there are other activities to chose from until parents get home.

There's a pre-teen club and a teen club...so there's a beginning to connecting if you give it a chance to start. Other clubs could start from these once the kids get together and sort through their interests and find a common thread. Not everyone is athletic - so there may be an art club, a jewelry making club, a music club, adopt a senior club for grandparents....who knows what young minds will discover.

And by looking other park menus there are a few options that could be requested. But it doesn't have to be the very first 10 weeks. To proclaim there's "no planning, they will cancel" is just crepe hanging -especially since it's been open ONE WEEK!

If you can't or don't have time to volunteer time then perhaps you know others who would. Loyola students might be a mentoring/tutoring option too. Until now there hasn't been ONE gathering place outside of the classrooms for all-age kids to explore a new common ground together. Likewise, the adults might learn from the youth.

As for the state of the ward - it was divided long before I moved here, & long before blogs came into existence. IF and WHEN the alderman choses to stop trying to divide and conquer and begins to work on creating a safe, cohesive link of neighborhoods - you might be surprised what might come of it all.

been there said...

just been through the park res torture a few times. you think you got it straight, then something gets cancelled. but my main point is that there doesn't seem to be a cohesive plan for afterschool. kids need to know where they are supposed to do, and there has to be someone there to take care of them. and that is the way they do it- stick it out there, see if anyone wants it.

i see nothing that speaks to belonging. maybe they can build that. but i still don't think it will compare with knowing you belong to clubs everywhere.

been there said...

and just a quick comment to the end of your post- i honestly do not know what you are talking about. i just have never seen him play like that. in fact, he is a lot better than i am at giving everyone a chance to speak, to belong, to work, to be a part of the ward organization. never seen the man be an ass. never seen the man be crass.
not like i live next door, and he runs everything past me, but..... he tries. he really does.

Toni said...

Mo - you vote for him - so you're in his inner circle. Now that half the ward has voted against him, he needs you to listen to him. He's raised his voice at many of us many times as a method of intimidation. Or taking over a meeting agenda is another...or taking over a public building to appease certain people. It's all a power play, an intimidation ploy. Usually people try to butter up the perceived enemy but not Joe....

It only makes him look like a bully. Whenever he wants to change that MO fine. I'm glad you're happy with the way things work and can blame 50% of the ward for what doesn't work. That's rationalization not rationality.

been there said...

i do not want to go back and forth forever. i will just say that i have been in the shoes of someone who is seen the way joe is seen around here, in a smaller way. and i know that it is easy then for everything you do to be seen in a bad light. i know that much about human nature.
i have never seen joe angry. i have never seen him be mean. i've seen him pilloried around here for things he has no control over, and things that are not his job. still, i have seen him work with former opponents frequently. i have seen him shrug off insults, and get down to work.
i wouldn't take his job for all the tea in china, even with a 90% margin of victory. there are people around here who flat out hate me for supporting him, and for sticking up for him. people who do not even know me.
i don't "blame" the other half of the ward for what doesn't work. i don't have any interest in blame. it is worthless to point fingers. the problems here have complex causes and will require complex solutions. like ending the stupid prohibition on drugs that this very city proved would not work almost 100 years ago. like curing mental illness. like taking care of wounded warriors, so they don't end up sleeping in the parks. like building an economy with a middle class, instead of squeezing everything until it is only rich and poor. like making sure that all our children are wanted somewhere.
there is a sad sort of culture created by all this nastiness and name calling. ugliness heaped upon ugliness, until we would argue over the second coming.
whoever occupies the lowly office of alderman can fix nothing with this kind of barrage of garbage day in and day out. we the people need to find a way. hate ain't it. anger and venom ain't it.

mcl said...

A final comment: "Moore's spin/dishonesty about 'opposition' to the Boys & Girls Club is with out any basis in fact. I know of NO ONE who was/is against having a B&G Club in our community. What 'we' do and did oppose was the 'behind closed doors' attempt to turn over a public Community Center to a private organization and pay 'them' to operate their membership organization with tax funds, to the tune of $100,000. We welcome the B&G Club to our neighborhood and continue to urge them to base the Club in the Gale School Annex, which has been 'offered' as an available site by the school Principle. Any divisiveness and politicalization of this issue has been instigated by Mr. Moore."
Mike L.

Al Iverson said...

Moore's email blast struck me as dishonest and revisionist. I politely responded and asked for clarification, but I expect no response.

Been There, perhaps you could sign up to teach a class on "belonging"? Not sure what that actually means as far as how programming would address it to your satisfaction, but perhaps we could learn it at such a class.

been there said...

ya know, it would take a long time to explain exactly what i mean, and probably someone would take offense at something, because this is rogers park. but let me take a small stab.-

being a devout atheist, i know that we got here through evolution. i think that if we look back, as best we can, at simpler cultures, and at our primate ancestors, we will see what the "baseline" of human nature is.
the most important part of any species is passing on the dna to the next generation. in the human species, these packets are called children. even chimpanzees form tribes, whose main function is to make sure that children reach maturity. this helps to bridge the gap when a parent falters.
i believe that we are hard wired to be social beings. (among other, less fortunate things.) i believe that children with unmet needs look first to others in the "tribe" to take care of them. i believe that when they don't find that, they turn to the kind of behaviors that would allow them to survive alone.
i think this is why children turn to gangs. they do not have what they need to survive, they see that being "good", in a culture of scarcity, is the fast track to starving, and they take the violent path.
altruism is a part of human nature, but it is a risky proposition. i believe that we have a built in mechanism to figure out if it is safe to be altruistic. that mechanism looks for a connection to a caring adult community.
i feel that that is what bgc is. belonging is more than just playing baseball or basketball. an organization that tells them that not only are they valued in their own community, but they are part of a clan that reaches all across the country sends a powerful message to the kids who are a part of it. a culture of commitment to "hard case" kids, in and of itself, sends a powerful message.
the chicago park district just does not do those things. it is not meant to do those things. it is not that i think that bgc is the only organization that can do this. i think that many schools do this. i think that many neighborhoods do this. i think that many extended families do this.
but i think it is pretty clear that rogers park could use more of this.

i know that is a pretty sketchy argument. evolutionary psychology is a fairly new and, imho, extremely interesting field of social science. i urge anyone who finds this interesting to read up on it. an excellent, although already fairly old, book that is written for general audiences is "the moral animal- why we are what we are: the new science of evolutionary psychology" by robert wright. this author also has a more recent book called "nonzero- why the arc of human history points towards peace." which is a really interesting look at the subject of war.

i hope that bgc ends up in the gale annex, although i think the position that this is an equal solution to the community center is disingenuous. the funding stream is just not going to be there, and i would hate to see the club take any resources away from the school. should that happen, tho, i do seriously mean it that i will write the largest possible check for it. i hope that all the yellers will do the same.

Al Iverson said...

OK, I'll bite. What specifically would BGC have done better that would have satisfied your request in this regard?

It's great to hope for more, but I feel like you're asking for a mystical feel-good bonding mechanism that is ill defined, and not necessarily an appropriate function for this park building.

You're right -- BGC in the Gale Annex is not an equal solution. It's a better one, free of the tax subsidy that was negotiated by way of back room dealing.

been there said...

that's as good a description as i can give without writing a book.

but i would like you to define a talking point here- back room dealing.
this is what i saw- someone came to the alderman with an idea, and the alderman liked it. he tried to implement it. that is what a good alderman does. apparently, the members of the PAC, were upset that the alderman did this. but, the alderman is not subject to any mandate to talk to the PAC, they are advisory to the park district, not to the alderman.
joe's wishes carry more weight than that of any one citizen, but in the end, he is bringing the park district ideas, and they are free to accept or reject them, as we have seen.
you see "backroom dealings", sorry, i see attempts to solve problems, bring resources, and make things better.
and as far as tax payer subsidies, i feel that that is another timeworn talking point. if there is anything that it is worthwhile to spend tax money on, it is helping the kids of rp to take the righteous road in life. and if the club locates in the annex, that will be subsidized by the taxpayers, also. only that will take dollars away from school programs, whereas the bucket that it would have come out of was more expressly allocated for that purpose.
"tax payer dollars" is the fall back argument for everything that all bashers bash. but you might as well work for the end of organized government if in the end all you really say is "my money is mine, fu."

Al Iverson said...

Yet the alderman brings many other things to the community for discussion. I just received another email him today, asking for the community's input on a zoning change proposal. He didn't do that here. There's multiple theories as to why, and most of them reflect poorly upon Mr. Moore.

I see nothing wrong with helping youth. I do see something wrong with randomly assigning money without due consideration or oversight. I wonder what budget would have been appropriate for that use, and I'm not convinced that this specific budget is the right one, nor am I swayed by the inclusive "more expressly allocated" description you've used.

I find it amusing that you think I'm one of "the bashers." Maybe some day we'll meet, and you can get to know me for who I actually am.

been there said...

iirc, joe sent out several emails about the bgc. that multiple theories put forth by people who hate him reflect poorly is no surprise. that does not make any of them particularly valid.
here is mine- joe is a human being who finds him self vehemently hated. imho, unfairly. yet his job sometimes requires him to be a punching bag. i think that he is a pretty good sport about it. but in this situation, like many others, it is not really his job. like i said, he has a bigger seat at the table with the park district, but it is still their job to make these decisions. the pac reports to them, not joe. the whole thing became a pitched battle before he could even catch his breath. he thought he was doing something good. for which he received his usual punishment. painting this whole thing as something joe has power over is a real distortion. i do not blame him for deciding not to stick his head out there for pie throwing practice when it is not his job.

as far as budgets, etc, this is JUST the sort of social purpose that the park district, and parks in general, were intended to further. the structure we see today is very much an outgrowth of the social reform movement of jane addams, et al. so, i think it is the perfect budget for it. and i think that gale school has enough on it's plate. if they end up in the annex, i hope that they are able to find a revenue stream that does not take funds from gale's operating budget. all the schools are pinched enough.
honesty compels me to admit that i would like to see the philosophy of the lighted schoolhouse practiced here, but that is a whole, huge shift in the way schools are run and funded, and just taking one little chunk of this, without proper funding would, imho, be a serious mistake.

and really, the original proposition that bgc manage the facility was just that, a proposition. a rough proposal that would, no doubt, have had to go through whatever process the park district was obliged to put it through. no one said it wouldn't. and most certainly no one said, implied, or intended that adults would not be served. this was never true, yet it was the number one talking point.

and yeah, i am sure that if i met half the people who post on these boards at a block party, we would have a fine old time. which is exactly the point i was trying to make in the first place here. disagreeing without being disagreeable is what living in a democracy is all about. without it, we are naked apes with car keys. a sad situation.

mcl said...

been there
You really don't seem to have a clue or a grip on reality! The purpose of the PAC's is to be the intermediary and represent the interest of the community with regard to the parks. That means that the Alderman as well as residents should work with the PAC to deal with Park District issues. Joe has refused to do that. Further, the B&G Clubs of Chicago have 26 School-Partner Clubs throughout the City. It is the WAY they offer programs to youth in our City neighborhoods. The privatization of a Chicago Park District Community Center by a B&G Club has NEVER been done. Finally, the Gale Annex is under used by the School due to a drastic drop in enrollment over the past several years. Establishing a B&G Club in the Annex would actually be a financial plus for Gale School, by the B&G Club assuming operational costs, etc. I could go on about other statements you make but what's the point, you don't seem to want to discuss facts because you are obviously to intoxicated from drinking Joe's 'kool-aid'. BTW, Joe is an elected official who is supposed to advocate for what's best for his constituency and take into consideration what their needs and wants are as well as what is in their best interest. His method is and has been for to long...."NOTIFICATION, not COUNSELTATION'. That no longer 'cuts' it! POWER TO THE PEOPLE! This will be my last response to your half baked babble!

Jocelyn said...

Been there calls the people opposing the privatization of the Field House "a handful of loudmouths". But these are the people who happen to be paying attention to what is going on around here. These are the people who volunteer and show up for meetings even though she seems to deny that consistently and say they are couch critics. And even if they were couch critics, they are taxpayers and have a right to speak out and demand accountability.

Oh, you can ask any person on the street (including me), "Would you support a BGC at a local Field House and most would say, "Yes!" without thinking. But if you look at the facts and situation and big picture, you may think twice.

It's certainly inconvenient for Joe to have all these squeaky wheels to deal with and one could argue that poor Joe is just a mere Alderman trying to do a job and he is just a little fish in terms of corruption etc..., BUT it just shows that the people who are paying attention have had enough of this nonsense(Chicago-style politics, pay-to-play etc...) and we have to start objecting somewhere-why not in our own backyard?

I agree with BT that it is a sad situation. I can see both sides and it boggles my mind how people can have such diametrically opposed views of a situation yet in many ways share the same values and want the same thing deep down. The lack of trust that has developed in our ward for our Alderman seems not-repairable to me. That is sad.

I do think it's up to the guy with the $100K++ salary and the position of authority to reach out to even his worst enemies and build consensus. Not saying everyone else is blameless, but he could play this whole thing much differently. But then, maybe he can't...because if he could he would.

Now if the Alderman did that and the detractors would not participate, well, then you would be right that they just don't want to get along and put their anger and dislike for Joe before the community. He really should flip this whole thing in a genuine way instead of coming across so peevish. If it is true as you say, that Joe isn't angry, then why can't he reach out to these people? Why does everyone have to come to him? Maybe because he doesn't want to deal with us? Maybe it's pride? Maybe he'd rather campaign for Obama and make plans and run things his way without the hassle.

Well, people are wanting more these days. What's an alderman to do?

been there said...

don't think i used the term couch critics. i do understand the process. i do understand where people are coming from.
there are just so many things about this that are bogus.
there is nothing unusual these days about contracting out government services. the city doesn't run the parking garages. the city doesn't run the food concessions in the parks. the city doesn't plant the flowers in the medians. it is not a trend the i really approve of, but contracting out park programing would hardly be the earth shattering event that has been portrayed.
if i were in joe's shoes, i don't know what i would do. he is a human, after all, but has hardly been treated like one. i think he has done his best to carry on. but again, as much as we all might like the alderman to be in the loop for this kind of thing, it is not his job. he does not run the parks, he is under no obligation to listen to the pac. that is not the chain of command. in spite of all that, he has invited people that he knows despise him into his office, and tried to work with them, anyway.

really, i could never do it. imho, he has gone above and beyond. people need to be fair if they want their government to work. they need to be decent if they want to be a part of things. a government paycheck does not make you the property of the citizens. it just makes you an employee. how would you feel if your boss treated you the way that some treat joe. the distortions have gone beyond the pale.
i would rather be in iowa myself.

Al Iverson said...

I think if your point there is something other than "the process failed because the alderman didn't get a hug," then you should clarify, because that's all I'm getting from it.

BTW, "the trend is outsourcing"? Fail. Sorry.

been there said...

the point, al, is that it is not joe's job.
without the history and hostility, he probably would have been happy to be a part of the process. but, it was there. he did still try. he arranged meetings. he participated. he didn't have to.

and privatization- i have a problem with it when it is a for profit company getting a monopoly, and being paid more than they are worth. when it is a worthy non-profit, doing the kind of work that is really largely about caring, not so much.
i don't think there ever was a bright line here. i don't think city government ever ran their own paper mill. not sure they ever had their own printing presses. sure didn't ever build their own buildings. there were always things that were contracted for. there is no bright line.
i agree the line is moving, too far in some areas. but i can't make the case that this is where the line should be drawn. how about haliburton and subsidiaries leaving trucks in the desert and replacing them because they get a flat tire? how about at a cost plus contract like that?

Al Iverson said...

Been there, you do a really good job of trying to cloud the issue by bringing in a lot of outside references that have little bearing on what really went on here. Bravo, but it remains fair to question the supposed time line, inconsistencies in what Joe has said, and whether or not this use of funding would have been appropriate. It's great that you think it's appropriate, but that's hardly a universal opinion. Not only in the community, but apparently city wide, as this has never been done before, according to MCL.

My opinion is unchanged; I don't find a valid comparison to a paper mill or Haliburton. Sorry!

been there said...

well, not sure how comprehensive mcl's grasp of city history is, but i am pretty sure that, at least at one point in time, jane addams hull house has had a similar contract. they have a large number of contracts with government agencies for a large number of issues. although this is my hobby, i think it would take a pretty long time to review every single thing that hull house has ever had. but would think they would not exist without "privatization"

i can see where you wouldn't want anything from "outside" to cloud your issue. but don't turn around and cite a nonexistent history to bolster your argument.

Toni said...

Mo - no one is clouding the issue of a park district public building being outsourced - if you and Jim 'n Joe and Dorothy and Dick want the BGC - start calling their corporate sponsors.

I called one Friday - and was told to the BGC can apply for a grant as they've done in the past. This particular corporate sponsor has donated a lot of money to the BGC in the past including help to build in the CHA.

So if all the corporate funding deadline for 2008 was 'missed' by Jim et al and the BGC the next step is to take a new public building and call it a pilot project?

been there said...

it was my impression that bgc's ability to fundraise, and bring in dollars from sources outside of cpd was one of the big pluses on their side of the ledger. afaik, bgc has grant writers and fundraisers who are already doing good work. i'm sure when they locate up here they will find the many philanthropic organizations that have money available to help the kids here.

i can tell you that $100k/yr grants do not grow on trees, tho. why don't you offer to raise some money for them? .

once again, i will say that when they find a home in rogers park, i will bring my checkbook, and write the largest check that i can afford.

i believe the people who prevented bgc from finding a home here are duty bound to either find another home with a $100k/yr funding stream, or provide equivalent programming at the field house. and that includes programming where the emotional needs of at risk kids are provided for.

those who scream over and over for accountability ought to have to show some.

Al Iverson said...

No, I don't feel compelled to donate to random causes based only on attempted shamings from people I disagree with. Sorry!

been there said...

well, if you are one of the people who opposed and stopped this program, why don't you feel a need to do the right thing? (speaking to a general you, you al can assess your own level of responsibility) this was a very destructive fight. who is going to pick up the broken glass?
here's a hint- not me. happy to donate generously when you have fixed it.
sadly for joe, he is still the fixer of all problems, the blame for all the evil in the universe. he will try to fill the gap. for which, i'm sure, he will be adequately punished.

Rogers said...

Jesus, Mo, you've been arguing the same dead point for days.

Give it a rest already.

been there said...

thanks so much for your intelligent comment on this important issue.

Toni said...

Mo wrote: sadly for joe, he is still the fixer of all problems, the blame for all the evil in the universe. he will try to fill the gap. for which, i'm sure, he will be adequately punished.

Good grief Mo, where was he for the past 12 years? Don't you realize there are adult children that waited with every 'groundbreaking' for the building? You keep harping about the programming, keep insisting that everyone donate money to the BGC.

That's what grantwriters are supposed to do. From my perspective, it was a last minute brain fart and not well thought out. So instead of proper planning, the 49th gang decided to take the field house because Joe cares about the kids so much. Then let him donate $10k instead of tossing hot dogs at them. Ten years worth of political picnics and voila, there's some funding.

I don't suppose you've looked over the immense wealth behind the BGC have you? I'd write a check - but I'd decide what the amount would be. From all the time you've spent on this one single subject, you could have recruited how many people to write checks?

been there said...

From all the time you've spent on this one single subject, you could have recruited how many people to write checks?

and how many checks could you have collected?

funny how none of you people seem to be able to grasp the concept that you all have done enormous damage to the civil discourse and decision making process of this ward. the constant stream of ugliness has consequences. you are seeing it right now.
yes, look at the list of funders. look at the wealth of the organization. a far cry from the penny pinching of cpd. and the bunch of you have told them to take their resources, and hit the road. why? for a stupid, petty vendetta.
and you can't even grasp what i am saying.
really freakin' sad.

Al Iverson said...

Well, no, we can grasp what you're saying perfectly fine. We simply disagree with it.

Kheris said...

Wow, never thought this would go on so long.

Been There - the Gale School has offered up the Annex, plenty of folk support that solution, and Toni found at least one corporate sponsor who would entertain a grant request. Seems like a solution is in reach.

Competitive sourcing of government work is a fact of life. Attempts to competitively source federal jobs that are not inherently governmental (like the care and feeding of laptops and cell phones) are a part of OMB's dashboard assessment of agency performance. The key word is "competitive" and a sole source solution is not usually accepted absent a solid demonstration via market research that the proposed service provider has a lock on that service.

That's all anyone really wanted, a demonstration that ONLY the BGC could fill a perceived void in the CPD's capabilities. We never got anything besides Joe's and Jim's assertions, coupled with Joe's acknowledgement that the BGC WOULD PROBABLY NOT raise sufficient funds, thus the CPD was considering a subsidy. Too much due diligence that wasn't fully done.

There is a possible solution, as noted above and there may be others at hand. I haven't heard anything more about the Gale School Annex. Hopefully Toni will let us know if she hears anything.

Otherwise, I think this horse is as dead as it gets.

Rogers said...


This ceased to be an intelligent discourse several days ago. You're just making noise at this point.

Craig Gernhardt said...

At least half the comments were Mo saying the same thing over and over and over and over again.

Let it go Mo, you lost.