Vanessa has got her panties in a wad, and apparently Westgard does too judging from his comment over Toni Duncan's rant about fireworks and the cognitive dissonance that ensues when the trappings of wealth permeate an impoverished neighborhhood.
The title of Vanessa's post pretty much sums up her perspective, and Westgard jumps right in with a reference to white privilege in an uncalled for snarky comment:
Toni conveniently forgets that she chose to buy a home in a poor neighborhood - and presumably saved herself a pretty penny over a comparable home in Hinsdale or Wilmette, or wherever it is that poor people don't interfere with Toni's standards for white privilege.
I was all set to sit this one out until I read that because he might as well have been talking about me. Excuse me all to hell Mr. High-and-Mighty-Progressive-Lawyer for wanting to live where I can afford the payments and have amenities that are important to me. I didn't move up here looking for a dialed back version of the Gold Coast. Yes, there is poverty in Rogers Park and I knew that going in. However, it doesn't follow that crime has to live here, or that gangbangers have to do business here, that littering has to be tolerated, or bad behavior should be ignored, or that building owners get a pass on maintaining their properties because they rent to folks at the lower end of the economic scale. Sorry, but that's not about white privilege, it's about having a safe and sane neighborhood. Presumably that's why you called 911 while witnessing this close encounter on the parkway in front of your office. Or were you actually imposing your aesthetic standards?
I used to live in Cleveland on the line between the East Side's poverty and Shaker Heights' wealth. I was one of the few white folks living in the neighborhood, but we all shared one thing in common: crime and criminals were not welcome. That doesn't mean we were crime free, but we worked hard at keeping it out. I paid full rent in a complex that included tenants paying with Section 8 vouchers. Loud and noisy it could be, but they weren't interested in sharing the complex with troublemakers. Twice I had people try to break into my apartment, while I was in it! They took off when they realized I was not only in it, but ready to put up a fight. The only dead body that ever appeared on our property was put in our dumpster by someone from outside the 'hood and he was arrested and convicted.
What Toni is talking about is choices and priorities, and their impact on the families and the neighborhood. Vanessa comments on the fact that the people Toni is describing have different values. Well yeah, apparently they do according to Toni:
After a meeting last week, I heard one security guard yelling profanities at two men leaning on their parked car across the street. And yes, a black man was using the ‘N’ word. The two men he claimed were taunting him were from a different ethnic background. So a crowd gathered on the corner to cheer on the security guard cursing the ‘foreigners’, chants similar to those in Lord of the Flies.
Yup, that's a great way to win friends, influence people, and impress the neighbors with your wit, wisdom and general good nature.
Westgard seems to think it's all about Toni:
Is there anything more callous than kicking the poor while they're down by complaining that they don't measure up to your aesthetic standards? Toni looks at children living in poverty and thinks about ... her own comfort!
Well I guess he stopped reading somewhere along the way because Toni tells us her real agenda:
But do they want this to be a decent, safe, clean low income neighborhood?
Oops, there's that pesky white privilege raising its ugly head again and imposing its aesthetic standards.
Vanessa thinks Toni is off the mark in her criticism of the expensive sneakers she is seeing;
Toni doesn't criticize Nike for the huge mark ups they place on the shoes and all the advertising that persuades young children that they need these shoes to be happy and socially acceptable, that's OK because its a free market...
Sooooooo, does this mean the children control the family checkbook? The parents don't possess veto power? Or are the parents as gullible as their children?
If parents are choosing designer fashion and cool gadgets, complete with expensive prices, over rent and utilities, I don't want to hear any whining about evictions and utility shutoffs. That choice reflects their priorities and society is not required to fund the difference. If their children are learning entrepreneurial skills via drug deals and the leading role models are gangbangers and hustlers, then there is work that needs to be done. Starting with the parents.
I have talked with Toni only once and I believe she is a woman who cares deeply about her neighborhood. She is not hate-filled, as Vanessa would infer. In fact Vanessa suggests Toni limit her writing:
I wish Toni would write about the things she knows instead of these ignorant observations about a culture different than hers.
I attended a diversity video that spoke about how folks move out of poverty. There are 3 steps; 1) you have to want to, 2) you have to get educated, and 3) you have to build relationships. These steps were also used to illustrate how folks can become more attuned to cultural diversity. I think Toni does write about what she knows, and that she wants to understand. From her previous posts I think she is getting quite an education, and I don't believe she is living in isolation, she is out building relationships.
Vanessa, this next is specifically for you:
1) fireworks can maim and kill. They are not for amateurs or children. They are legal in Texas and I marvel that no one in my uncle's subdivision sets their house afire with the glowing fireworks debris landing on the roofs amid the ever present dry pine needles. One night there will be a misfire, and then watch out! You should talk to folks whose family members were injured by fireworks. I saw a professional setup blow up on the ground, ending the show and seriously injuring one of the men who was lighting the explosives (which is what they are). Even the pros aren't immune from mistakes or bad charges.
2) start taking your own advice, stick to what you know when you write. And if you must write about my generation, spend some time educating yourself about us, and building relationships with us, before making the same sort of half-assed assumptions you believe Toni is making.
20 comments:
Amen - you said pretty much what I said, and you said it very well. Thank you.
My comment is on Vanessa's blog.
I, too, was going to abstain, but decided that it is simply wrong to let it it go without comment.
Vanessa, please have some tolerance and respect for points of view that are not your own. That's what you want from the rest of the world, isn't it?
All these posts (yes I read Toni's, Vanessa's and Tom's - which I posted a comment to) have at least one thing in common - well actually maybe 2, but here's what I got out of them:
Primarily the blogs are all fairly self-righteous in their tones.
Toni's blog has a self-righteous and almost whiney tone to it, but she brings up many issues that face NOT ONLY neighborhoods on the poverty line or over it for that matter, but all neighborhoods. There are plenty of these issues in areas that would be considered higher income neighborhoods, and its the community action in those neighborhoods that tends to be the motivating factor and with that community action there does seem to be a lower crime/noise/(insert your peeve here) complaint rate.
Vanessa defends the basic ideals of families, while not drawing a line in the sand due to income. She's right that there are plenty of poverty level families that raise their kids the right way (at least the way society believes and espouses to), but they face the same issues as higher income neighborhoods, if you have some money, there tends to be the idea that it's not enough, so you want more and if you have no money than you definitely want more.
Lets face it: The more you're without money or 'enough' of it, the more tempting it is to do something that has a HUGE cash payoff, without the taxes i.e.: sell drugs, steal, especially if you're a child.
Tom's blog seems to mirror Vanessa's in a lot of ways, and what the overall attitude of both appears to be is that Toni doesn't have the right to want better for any reason, because that steps on the rights of the less fortunate to live as they do.
Hmmmmm...interesting argument but that's for another day, another discussion.
The only way I know of to affect change is to actively effect change. Easy to say, but not to do or get started on.
The theory of action/reaction applies to all things, not just Science and Chemistry. Products of environment don't change just because the tools are OUT THERE,, sometimes the tools have to hand carried to the 'environmental products', to be of much or any use.
Is there an immediate answer to the problem? Probably to get active in your community now, but everyone has to have the same goal, be on the same page. There is strength in numbers, but it's not a 'quick fix'.
Blogging about it won't do much good for anyone except the bloggers, but perhaps that's all they really wanted. To feel better for having said something, but not for having actually DONE anything.
You've selected out the quotes that match your theory, and ignored the ones that don't match. Toni said a lot of things, some of which were complaining about crime. The part that struck me was this: "socio-economic blight we’re so blessed with."
That's not about crime, that's about poverty. Really, one could make equally good arguments that Toni's post is about black people, poor people, and crime. Realistically, it's about all three. I just find it offensive that Toni feels free to make this snappy comment about other people's misery.
Toni isn't talking about the whole neighborhood of Rogers Park, she's talking specifically about NOH. Toni didn't just move into Rogers Park, she picked the most heavily black, heavily poor section. And then she not only criticizes them for behaving the way they have for decades before she moved in, she makes a joke at their expense. I don't find poverty funny, especially in the middle of an essay that has no compassion for the poor anywhere else. If you can't see the vicious tone in what Toni wrote, you're not really reading it.
@Hilary -
I think you missed the whole point of Vanessa's post, which was a justification of her attack on Toni. Toni is not speaking against poverty or the poor, let alone the children of same. She is criticizing the choices that feed the cycle of poverty and result in children being given 'things' for no reason other than to keep up with or otherwise impress their peers, and the social costs that accrue. When parents abdicate their responsibilities as parents for the sake of image, or to keep the children 'happy',they send a toxic message to their children about responsibility to self and to the community. Self discipline and delayed gratification are no longer intrinsically important, they are important only to the extent that "I" get what "I" want. It becomes all about "me".
Vanessa is perfectly content with a social order that allows people to do whatever, whenever, short of physical assault. Apparently, anyone expecting more than that is imposing their views on others. What she approves of is a toned down version of social anarchy.
Toni has spent a long time working within the community she lives in. Her blog, which you characterize as having a self-righteous tone, is actually far more exasperated and sardonic than you give it credit for. Do some reading of her posts over the past year. You might be surprised.
Hilary says: "Blogging about it won't do much good for anyone except the bloggers, but perhaps that's all they really wanted. To feel better for having said something, but not for having actually DONE anything."
I think this is a really important point. To the extent it's pointed at me, I'll accept it, but my point here is to suggest that, whatever the past has been, going forward we should all be looking at engaging in personal action of a remedial nature. The less we bitch about someone else, and the more we DO things that help in some fashion, the better off we all will be.
@Westgard
The part that struck me was this: "socio-economic blight we’re so blessed with."
That's not about crime, that's about poverty. Really, one could make equally good arguments that Toni's post is about black people, poor people, and crime.
I grew up in a family that was constantly on the edge, economically, until my mother started selling Avon. I have a very clear memory as a 5 year old, with 3 siblings and 1 on the way, of a dinner made up of bread, spread with grated parmesan cheese and dry mustard. We drank chocolate water because there was no milk in the house. Dad picked up his paycheck when he went to work, and he was working 2nd or 3rd shift. Grocery shopping had to wait to the next day. That meal was never repeated.
However, our lack of funds was never an excuse for failing to exercise good behavior, whether at home or in public. And my parents certainly understood that living above your means was not the way to keep the wolf from the door. I wore saddle shoes when they were unfashionable, and hand me downs from a friend who was an only child. We had curtains in the basement to partition off bedrooms. It was years before my dad could afford to put up walls, and he did the labor himself.
Poverty is no excuse for social blight. The poor don't get a pass on reasonable social behavior just because they don't have money. My parents, and their parents, certainly knew this. NOH has a lot of poverty, and yes it is heavily black. Are you suggesting the black poor can't, or shouldn't be expected to, behave with some notion of social responsibility solely because they are poor? Since when does money determine what is acceptable behavior?
When poverty, and the conditions and behaviors that enable it, goes unalleviated and no alternatives are there to help people move up and onward, then I am not surprised when a neighborhood enters a cycle of poverty and more poverty. The stage is set for socio-economic blight when self destructive behaviors and criminal behaviors take hold. The neighborhood is no longer a place to live, it's a place to exist. This is what Toni wants to stop.
To be poor is no crime, and to be black and poor is no crime. The consequences of engaging in criminal or dysfunctional behavior is not something everyone else should have to simply live with. Do you really believe that the notion of personal responsibility is racist? I realize that the cycle of poverty, if it is engrained in multiple generations, can be difficult to break. That is no reason for not calling it out, or trying to find ways to break it.
Toni pointed out very clearly in her response to SE that behaviors must change before real improvement occurs. There is nothing racist about that.
My post showed up after Westie's response to Hilary.
@Westgard - are you suggesting Toni is not doing anything to affirmatively and proactively help her neighborhood? Based on what she has shared in her blog, and my conversation with her, I find that a bit much to believe.
I believe I said 'here's what I got out of them'...
that would mean taking the posts at their face value. If more was intended than perhaps the trouble is more in the wording than in the delivery. Could I have looked at other blogs by the same author, certainly, but I wasn't looking to get to 'know' the author, simply commenting on an open writing that seemed to stir up a debate amongst others in the community.
As an 'outsider' to NOH and RP, I took them at their face value which is likely what a lot of people would do, if they are 'outsiders'.
No, poverty isn't funny, and I didn't read anything that indicated anyone was making a joke about it.
As to a vicious tone in Toni's blog or ignoring quotes that match my 'theory', that is your opinion and you're welcome to it.
I simply summed up what I understood from the blog, based on the blog and the ensuing comments and rebuttal blogs, which includes my continued feeling of a self-righteous air from all sources involved in this 'debate'.
Each of you can offer that you were once in the shoes of the same people that Toni/we are discussing, but that begs the question of whether or not you broke a cycle of life to get where you are, or was it simply a temporary stopover in your life's journey to where you are now? I agree that we all have the ability to make choices, but I won't stand in judgment of those that make choices that I don't agree with or that I don't have the intimate facts about those choices.
Impress me by speaking to some of these poverty-level people, getting to know and understand them, discuss their life and the choices that they made that have them where they are today. Do that before judging whether the parents have given up or the kids have taken over. Do it without judging them as they speak, if they will speak to you at all.
I'm glad that Toni is active in her community, I'm sorry if I was too short-sighted to catch the subtleness of her exasperation or sardonic tone, this goes back to wording and delivery. It is not my intention to be disrespectful to her or anyone else.
My comment is based on me, my take on what I read and have read.
That it doesn't closely match anyone else's opinion doesn't negate mine.
If I was pointing it at anyone, I was pointing it at all of us, regardless of location.
Though I'm new-ish to these blogs, I'm not new to the neighborhood. I can't speak for Toni, because I'm just getting to know her -- but my impression from her posting about socio-economic blight was that her frustration is with the forces that seem to be invested in keeping the status as quo as they can . . . some of our local politicians and others with influence. Maybe I thought that because it matches my observations, and those of many others.
See Carl Steward's request for representation on Toni's blog 6/21. He has lived in the neighborhood NOH for many years, and has been very active and vocal. He is also Black, and does not accept bad behavior, crime, trash, drugs, etc., as "cultural."
If things are to improve, a lot is up to families, but a lot is also up to local government -- really listening, watching, and confering with many neighborhood residents in order to make positive changes. It takes commitment to effecting change: making real plans for things that work in other neighborhoods, obtaining funding, and spending those funds well.
So much that has been touted in election materials, photo ops, newsletters, and the like is only lip service. Very, very little has changed over the past several decades. Lots of talk about our rich diversity - cultural, social, economic, but little action to really improve people's lives and options for betterment. Lots of big words and big smiles, pats on the shoulder, etc. in the name of progressive values and so on, right up to God.
Did you know that our ward was 49th on the list of wards receiving government funds in the city? Why is that, when we have the such a high proportion of assisted housing and so many other needs? Why aren't we near the top of the list?
I don't know what it is, but there is something that must be benefitting the people who could most lead and effect changes. There's something that makes it important to keep things as they are.
Could it be . . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .money?
Who gains by making sure things don't change toooooo much? Why, it couldn't be slumlords, could it? It couldn't be that people who remain vulnerable are easier to control, could it?
We're all shocked, I tell you. Shocked!
It's disgusting to have what could be common and achievable goals turn into fighting amongst people who would seem to share some basic goals: to be free to live in our neighborhood in relative peace.
We are going to have to get on the same page, people!
The way I see it, the success of these blogs is less about having rousing debates/rants than about exchanging views and information that can help build some understanding. As long as it's about "us versus them," the conversation is useless for the purpose of building some community spirit. I have little respect for those who just want to stir up debate for the sake of their amusement.
These conversations have the potential to be more than just talk. So the challenge is to find what we have in common.
Let's do that.
I think that the biggest point that Vanessa, Tom and some others missed in Toni's post was personal responsibility, or the lack thereof.
If parents are raising their children in such a way that the children think it's okay to throw fireworks or otherwise hurt other people, they have failed in their responsibility as parents. If they don't teach their children to live within their means, they also fail. They have failed their children and ultimately society at large, which will have to deal with the consequences of the poor examples they set for their children.
This is the reality that so many of us deal with every day, whether we live north of Howard, in other parts of Rogers Park, in Wilmette, or in other neighborhoods rich or poor. We see it in road rage, in street crime, in general lack of courtesy, in the "me first" attitudes of brats like Paris Hilton.
After some incidents, I hear some people saying "where were the police?" Too often they should be saying "where were the parents?" Police can't stop people from making the decisions that come from one's basic values. Regardless of one's race or economic status, if a person is not able to weigh the consequences of their choices, the results may be disastrous, and we all pay the price.
On the blogs, I don't expect to agree with everyone. I'd rather find a way to peacefully coexist and just agree that we disagree, without calling names. We all gain more from the dialogue when we're not wasting our energy on hate.
Hilary- FYI many of the bloggers n Rogers Park are actively involved in the community well beyong their blogging activities.
I disagree that blogging does nothing. If someone spends time reading blogs about their neighborhood and what is going on there, that is a start in getting involved. I believe blogs can draw out more involvement in the community. Not everyone who reads them is an armchair quarterback by a long shot.
Take the shooting last week, which was a snippet on local news, but heavily discussed on the blogs. Because of Toni's blog, I am much more aware of what goes on NOH. Blogs can also inform people and be used as a tool to communicae about actions we can all take to improve the neighborhood.
For myself, I read Toni's comment about being "blessed with economic blight" as an ironic criticism of the politics played by Joe Moore and gang.
Most importantly, I think the things people choose to focus on in Toni's post says alot more about them than about Toni.
Jocelyn -
I disagree that blogging does nothing. If someone spends time reading blogs about their neighborhood and what is going on there, that is a start in getting involved. I believe blogs can draw out more involvement in the community. Not everyone who reads them is an armchair quarterback by a long shot.
You're absolutely correct, but I remember I never said that blogging does nothing. Perhaps you thought it was inferred, but as I later said, it was a point to all of us...all of us who count ourselves as part of the human race.
I agree that blogs are a good source of information and can lead to outside activities that are beneficial to the community at large.
It's unfortunate that in some of the blogs simply meltdown to name calling and arguments, or maybe not arguments so much as a conversation built on persuading the offending poster that ones opinion is correct while another's is not.
I couldn't agree more than with Sofi:
The way I see it, the success of these blogs is less about having rousing debates/rants than about exchanging views and information that can help build some understanding. As long as it's about "us versus them," the conversation is useless for the purpose of building some community spirit.
Thanks for letting me join the discussion.
Well said, Fargo and Jocelyn!
Thanks!
Ah, the old giveth-and-taketh-away routine. First we have this wonderful call to action:
"Blogging about it won't do much good for anyone except the bloggers, but perhaps that's all they really wanted. To feel better for having said something, but not for having actually DONE anything".
Then we're back to whining about what other people do and don't do:
"After some incidents, I hear some people saying 'where were the police?' Too often they should be saying 'where were the parents?'"
Yes, and all of them are full of shit. The question is, Where were you? People act like they deserve a medal for calling 911, or for identifying bad parenting tactics, or noticing that other people use offensive language in public. But comments about all of those activities are outwardly-directed complaints. Somebody else needs to do something. The police need to come here and arrest someone. Those parents need to spend more time with their kids. That security guard needs to change his behavior. All of that is probably true, BUT.... it's all outwardly directed.
Whining about them is passive, and ineffective. There are institutional problems with making the police responsive to community concerns, and that requires a long, slow process that isn't going to be accomplished in a couple of weeks. As for bad parents and people who use offensive language in public, there are groups that try to interact with people who behave this way, in order to help them change how they live their lives. Two groups are HACC and Bud Ogle's octopus of activities. Of course, Toni hates them too. Are they perfect? Probably not, but Toni hates the poor, and hates the people who try to help the poor, and that's pretty much her entire involvement.
If we agree that the correct approach is active, not passive, Toni's whining about everyone except herself doesn't pass the test. The police should do something differently, the parents should do something differently, the security guard should do something differently, the list goes on and on and conveniently includes everyone except Toni Duncan. If Toni wants to see the problem fixed, but doesn't like the existing organizations that try to do it, she needs to find a way to do it herself. She doesn't.
Go back to the quote:
"Blogging about it won't do much good for anyone except the bloggers, but perhaps that's all they really wanted. To feel better for having said something, but not for having actually DONE anything".
So Westgard, you're saying Toni does nothing to actively, and positively, affect change? Well, let's see now -
1 - she regularly participates at the CAPS meetings for 2422, I don't and I should (note to self same subject)
2 - I believe she was in attendance at the Jay Johnson hearing that closed the book on the dreadful Marshfield fire
3 - she attends other community meetings, such as the most recent one for Island Groove so she certainly is keeping up on changes
4 - she publicizes community events
5 - she is a member of the NOH Parks Advisory Council, which lobbied for the Gale Field House, which as you well know was stalled for a very long time and is only now finally being built.
I am sure if you surveyed her archives you'd come up with stuff. I'm not going to do the research for you, unless of course you pay me.
Your efforts to try and deflect attention from her efforts so you can demonize her are so, so, so....like Lyndon Larouche. They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
It's not going to work Tom, there's plenty of information that shows her commitment to the NOH community, and that includes the poor. Find another target for your faux-progressive outrage.
Of course Toni regularly participates in CAPS. CAPS, as it currently exists, is a big part of the complex of complaints. I've been to a lot of CAPS meetings, and here is how they run:
1. Citizens complain that crime happened. They usually also make an implicit complaint that the police didn't do something they should have.
2. Cops complain that citizens complain. They complain about criminals. They complain that their general orders prevent them from being effective.
3. Then, "discussion" ensues. Citizens repeat their complaints about criminals and cops, cops repeat their complaints about everyone except themselves, and encourage citizens to call 911 to complain more often.
4. Everyone goes home, although no one has made a commitment to change his or her own behavior.
That's CAPS, period. The only time I've seen anything different was when there were some citizen walks when school gets out.
Or, how about Toni going to Jay Johnson's court hearings? Her blog is full of pictures where she complains about his buildings and his management, and then she goes to court to listen to the City attorney complain to the judge. Do you know the name of the document that commences a lawsuit? - a "complaint."
On and on. Yes, if you go through her blog you'll find some safety walks, which she committed to doing every month. The first one I labeled the "All-White Safety March" because that's what it was. She was embarrassed and managed to get a little diversity in her group in the next walk or two. She didn't keep up with the commitment to do a walk every month, though.
Lots of complaining, very little action for change.
The less we bitch about someone else, and the more we DO things that help in some fashion, the better off we all will be.
This is one key to effecting change.
Maligning Toni is not the answer, and as a businessman AND Attorney, you certainly should know that this kind of thing is counter-productive to community unification and action.
Saying that she 'hates the poor' or any organization that tries to help the poor is maligning, and in my opinion, uncalled for.
You take issue with how it she delivered her list of dislikes, how it was worded...well ok, so do I. But if one looks beyond the delivery to what is at the heart of it, then the focus needs to shift to those issues and away from the delivery of them.
As an attorney, do you not work with your clients/witnesses to ensure that the delivery of their testimony is the most beneficial to the case? You do that so that the facts come out in the best possible light and the testimony appears credible.
That isn't to say that if left to their own devices, the testimony couldn't still have credibility but why take that chance, right? It might have less credibility than if they are rehearsed in advance.
The facts are: NOH has some pretty strong issues that at least ONE resident feels needs to be addressed. At least ONE resident has strong opinions on what the problems are and where they originated from, at least in part.
No one has offered possible solutions to these issues, no one has even suggested a starting point for working toward resolution.
While we're busy discussing/debating the ONE residents motivations for blogging their discontent, no useful information has been offered as to what to do about the issues. We do all seem to agree that those issues exist, no one seems to be disputing that.
If the blogs are to be used in a positive way, then it seems to me that a list of the issues need to be created, a list of the current programs and 'tools' currently in place and then a list of the possible ways/means/manner that the individual issues might be addressed in conjunction with the current programs or maybe in spite of them, from within and by the community.
And all members of the RP/NOH community, whether bloggers or community activists/business owners need to be involved. Strength in numbers, remember? Everyone on the same page. Perhaps getting off the blogs and out into the streets is one way to address the problems? Maybe not...won't know until you try.
hilary:
Sorry, but poverty doesn't excuse the ripoff mentality, which is common in all classes in this degraded country.
I have lived in poverty-stricken nabes where you can safely leave your house unlocked. My mother was a divorcee with a deadbeat ex and unsympathetic family ("We TOLD you not to marry him!!!") supporting 2 girls at a time when women couldn't get decent jobs without at least a 4 year degree, and hardly even then. We spent 2 years with no car, no phone, no new clothes, no television, and only a cheap old record player for entertainment. My mother bought her clothes at consignment shops and brought library books home for us. We were surrounded by people in similar circumstances- working class folk who made their living at crap non-union and low-grade clerical jobs.
There was NO crime at all in our area. A bicycle theft or a kid caught shoplifting was a big, big deal.
I have worked among white-collar "professionals" who make in excess of $250K a year and would literally steal the fillings out of your teeth if they thought you wouldn't bite them first. When you are possessed of the mentality of Entitlement, nothing is ever enough.
We as a polity forgive too much bad behavior out of people from all classes, and the people who suffer the most for the total breakdown in morals are, of course, lower-income people who cannot defend themselves against the depredations of criminals.
Being poor does not excuse bad behavior anymore than being rich entitles you to plunder the rest of us the way the fuedal lords of old plundered the peasantry.
We might be headed for a time in which most of the population, including you and me, are poor. How will we cope if we all have the mentality that someone else should subsidize our indulgence and poor choices?
I look at most Americans and their stupidity, self-indulgence, lack of civility, and frequent criminality that cuts across all class and ethnic lines, and wonder how we will cope with an era that may make the Great Depression seem like a mild retrenchment compared.
I'll tell you what- should we arrive at a time where 90% of the population has to work 80 hrs a week at whatever just to stay warm and fed, there will be NO tolerance for the kind of behaviors that Vannessa and Westgard think that the "po' and downtrodden' ought to be givin a pass on, 'cause, see, they're so discriminated against and come from such cruddy environments.Life will be so rough for almost all of us that nobody will be able to claim the Social Victim's Exemption From Decent Behavior and Personal Responsibility. Nobody will be able any longer to claim special victim status as an excuse for criminality and incivility. No excuses will be accepted, because we will all be in the same boat.
Only a rich, indulgent society can accomodate the kind of misbehavior and incivility, plus swinish self-indulgence on the public dime, that Toni discussed in her blog post.
We might be coming to the end of that time. The coming time is going to be a lot rougher than anyone posting in here can even imagine, so we had better pull together and start expecting, AND DISPLAYING, civility and decency. And we had better change our attitudes really fast- the kind of attitudes driving the behaviors of the most problem-prone populations, and those of their enablers such as Vannessa and Westgard, will make civil breakdown and disorder a certainty in an era of rapidly deteriorating standards of living.
hilary:
Sorry, but poverty doesn't excuse the ripoff mentality, which is common in all classes in this degraded country.
I don't recall saying or even indicating this, but I do agree with you.
I have lived in poverty-stricken nabes where you can safely leave your house unlocked. My mother was a divorcee with a deadbeat ex and unsympathetic family ("We TOLD you not to marry him!!!") supporting 2 girls at a time when women couldn't get decent jobs without at least a 4 year degree, and hardly even then. We spent 2 years with no car, no phone, no new clothes, no television, and only a cheap old record player for entertainment. My mother bought her clothes at consignment shops and brought library books home for us. We were surrounded by people in similar circumstances- working class folk who made their living at crap non-union and low-grade clerical jobs.
There was NO crime at all in our area. A bicycle theft or a kid caught shoplifting was a big, big deal.
I have worked among white-collar "professionals" who make in excess of $250K a year and would literally steal the fillings out of your teeth if they thought you wouldn't bite them first. When you are possessed of the mentality of Entitlement, nothing is ever enough.
We as a polity forgive too much bad behavior out of people from all classes, and the people who suffer the most for the total breakdown in morals are, of course, lower-income people who cannot defend themselves against the depredations of criminals.
Being poor does not excuse bad behavior anymore than being rich entitles you to plunder the rest of us the way the fuedal lords of old plundered the peasantry.
This seems contradictory to me. We don't allow the excuse that poverty is the reason for bad behavior, yet we allow that a breakdown in morals is suffered more strongly by the 'low income' class. A breakdown in morals seems to be the main issue here, as many have sighted it as the reason for the bad behavior, lack of civility, etc. We can't make an allowance for which we say there is no allowance can we?
We might be headed for a time in which most of the population, including you and me, are poor. How will we cope if we all have the mentality that someone else should subsidize our indulgence and poor choices?
I am counted among the 'working poor'. While I don't live in Sec 8 housing now, I have. Paycheck to 'almost the next paycheck' is the current theme of the day and some of my neighbors don't even have that. I have either lived near or worked with those that:
1) don't believe 'someone else' should subsidize their indulgances or
2) believe that it their right to make choices and no one elses right to judge whether those choices are good or poor.
As to poor choices;
Is a choice still considered poor, if no options are offered of better choices, and *more importantly* the chooser believes their choice to be the right choice? Human justification for decisions is a strong opponent to go up against, and choice is often the only thing some people, most often the poor, still have within their control. That someone would CHOOSE bad behavior, etc. over doing 'the right thing' is based I think, in the motivation the chooser has for why they made their choice in the first place. But then, who decides what is a good or bad choice?
I look at most Americans and their stupidity, self-indulgence, lack of civility, and frequent criminality that cuts across all class and ethnic lines, and wonder how we will cope with an era that may make the Great Depression seem like a mild retrenchment compared.
I'll tell you what- should we arrive at a time where 90% of the population has to work 80 hrs a week at whatever just to stay warm and fed, there will be NO tolerance for the kind of behaviors that Vannessa and Westgard think that the "po' and downtrodden' ought to be givin a pass on, 'cause, see, they're so discriminated against and come from such cruddy environments. Life will be so rough for almost all of us that nobody will be able to claim the Social Victim's Exemption From Decent Behavior and Personal Responsibility. Nobody will be able any longer to claim special victim status as an excuse for criminality and incivility. No excuses will be accepted, because we will all be in the same boat.
Only a rich, indulgent society can accomodate the kind of misbehavior and incivility, plus swinish self-indulgence on the public dime, that Toni discussed in her blog post.
We might be coming to the end of that time. The coming time is going to be a lot rougher than anyone posting in here can even imagine, so we had better pull together and start expecting, AND DISPLAYING, civility and decency. And we had better change our attitudes really fast- the kind of attitudes driving the behaviors of the most problem-prone populations, and those of their enablers such as Vannessa and Westgard, will make civil breakdown and disorder a certainty in an era of rapidly deteriorating standards of living.
I'd bet that the 'Mentality of Entitlement will grow ever stronger, should your scenario come to pass.
This country has made such advances in civil rights and civil freedoms (not that I'm against any of the advances made in these areas) that what you're saying would in fact, I believe, not come to pass. Society as a whole is so 'me' oriented now, (the 'baby boomers' generation has seen to that - my apologies to any of you in that generation as it is a generalization of the whole), that there would be far less emphasis on civility and morality than what you see today, based on the rights and freedoms granted under the constitution. Those that are confronted with someone who would try to change that freedom or take away that right, will cry 'foul!' and in doing so take to the courts yet another case based on the freedom of speech or other amendment right. It's all about 'me' and 'I'll sue' if it's not.
To paraphrase a movie quote: "It's every American's god-given right to treat each others like shit."
Having said all this, it doesn't mean I don't agree that we, as a society and individuals, need to treat each other, friend or stranger, better. I certainly do! We need to show more respect, civility, kindness, etc., but HOW do you reach the people who have made the choices you consider 'poor'? Who decides what a 'poor' choice is? How do you teach, show or convince them that the options that you offer have benefits and rewards and even some 'instant gratification' that is not always tangible? *that 'warm fuzzy' feeling*
I have a difficult time believing your scenario will come to pass, and I certainly hope it doesn't.
The working poor, tend to concentrate more on getting through each day, week or month and why many work more than one job, leaving the eldest children to look after the younger ones, and believing that their kids are doing what is right regardless of parental training, while they are at work.
Families have been forced to have both parents working just to pay bills for decades now, and single parents have had to make up the difference in their income by holding down more than 1 job, in most instances. How do you break the cycle that adds to the problems of the behavior? Which really came first - the chicken or the egg?
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